Curse

GWBOWZ · Jan 19, 2009, 01:42 PM // 13:42

IMO, Dervish have a lot of characteristics Sins and Wars dont. Same with Sin and War.

It all comes to you; If you think Dervish look cool then use them. + They work nice in PvE and can be used quite effectively in PvP if you know how to. Avatars make Dervish more special. IMO, i dont like them, and even without them, Dervish can work at PvP. It all comes to your Build, Strategy and Game ExP.

Maybe War and Sin have Huge Power, but Dervish have good things too. Mysticism is an Example

Darkside · Jan 19, 2009, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by GWBOWZ

IMO, Dervish have a lot of characteristics Sins and Wars dont. Same with Sin and War.

That doesn't make any sense.

Quote:

It all comes to you; If you think Dervish look cool then use them. + They work nice in PvE and can be used quite effectively in PvP if you know how to. Avatars make Dervish more special. IMO, i dont like them, and even without them, Dervish can work at PvP. It all comes to your Build, Strategy and Game ExP.

Yes that's all part of it but it's also based on a couple other factors. The reason people are using scythe warriors is because they have higher natural armor and thus better survivability. [warrior's endurance] gives them insane e-management. So instead of making a Dervish you can just run a scythe warrior with infinite energy and higher armor.

Assassin's also have it better because their primary attribute, critical strikes lets them do more damage more often by having a much higher chance to critical attack, and also feeds them with energy at the same time. Not to mention they have one of the best IAS in the game with Critical agility which can be maintained indefinitely during battle.

Quote:

Maybe War and Sin have Huge Power, but Dervish have good things too. Mysticism is an Example

Only thing it's really good for is if you're going to be using an Avatar.

Like I posted in the other thread (are dervishes used /needed anywhere?) I'm not trying to bash the Dervish as a character class...my dervish is my primary character and my favorite character, but that doesn't mean I'm ignorant to the way this game works. The fact is if you wanna use a scythe you don't need to make a dervish you can use a warrior or a sin and be just as if not more effective then a Dervish primary.

GWBOWZ · Jan 19, 2009, 06:31 PM // 18:31

But everyone says Dervish isnt good for PvP..

I dont use avis, but the builds you helped me with seem to be worth a try (90% sure itll be good) even if i use a Dervish/War

Bobby2 · Jan 19, 2009, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

Assassin's also have it better because their primary attribute, critical strikes lets them do more damage more often by having a much higher chance to critical attack, and also feeds them with energy at the same time. Not to mention they have one of the best IAS in the game with Critical agility which can be maintained indefinitely during battle.

Not to mention the Assassin is effectively AL95.

Burst Cancel · Jan 19, 2009, 07:37 PM // 19:37

The comparison really isn't as lopsided as you guys suggest. W/D wastes the elite on Warrior's Endurance. A/D loses SY!, and frankly shouldn't be playing scythe to begin with.

Critical Agility is a wasted skill slot when playing for serious. Drunken Master gets you both movement and attack speed, and the armor bonus doesn't stack with SY!

Tyla · Jan 19, 2009, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

Assassin's also have it better because their primary attribute, critical strikes lets them do more damage more often by having a much higher chance to critical attack, and also feeds them with energy at the same time. Not to mention they have one of the best IAS in the game with Critical agility which can be maintained indefinitely during battle.

Critical Agility is actually pretty weak for some places in my opinion. Enchantment removal and consumables (Drunken Master). These pretty much take it out of the scene. Apart from that, though... let's just say I'd rather use a Warrior.

Warriors' Endurance + Flail / Frenzy / some form of good IAS will completely outclass it excluding areas with hurtful hexes (take a Derv if no PnH) and conditions(take a Sin if no PnH). (if you've not got any more important melee, PnH can handle it)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GWBOWZ

But everyone says Dervish isnt good for PvP..

They're awesome in PvP, they're just outclassed in firepower, and for a Dervish to be outclassed in power assumes some huge inbalance. Nothing should even touch the power of the WS template - I even think that should be nerfed still.

Jeydra · Jan 19, 2009, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

They're awesome in PvP, they're just outclassed in firepower, and for a Dervish to be outclassed in power assumes some huge inbalance. Nothing should even touch the power of the WS template - I even think that should be nerfed still.

Far as I know the reason Dervishes don't show up in PvP is that they have nothing other than damage. So while they can still do over 100 damage a strike, they have no knockdowns, no interrupts, less reliable IAS / IMS and less armor. Wounding Strike is still strong, but with everything else about Dervishes nerfed there's little reason to play one anymore.

Tyla · Jan 19, 2009, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Far as I know the reason Dervishes don't show up in PvP is that they have nothing other than damage. So while they can still do over 100 damage a strike, they have no knockdowns, no interrupts, less reliable IAS / IMS and less armor. Wounding Strike is still strong, but with everything else about Dervishes nerfed there's little reason to play one anymore.

It's partly the nothing other than damage area. Massive firepower, just no utility - Palm Strikers give more utility than Wounding Strike Dervs and more firepower because of that dumb ability to dual every 4 seconds, and Warriors give more utility because they now have an accessable IAS/IMS combo of their own and Warriors' Endurance outclasses its firepower, the only optimum way to play with melee is load WE, PR or PS.

Dervs haven't really been nerfed at all, just overpowered with all the dumb buffs.

iVendetta · Jan 20, 2009, 01:25 AM // 01:25

[Golden Phoenix Strike][Horns of the Ox][Falling Spider][Blades of Steel][Avatar of Lyssa][Heart of Fury][Mystic Vigor][Resurrection Signet]

Darkside · Jan 20, 2009, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Critical Agility is actually pretty weak for some places in my opinion. Enchantment removal and consumables (Drunken Master). These pretty much take it out of the scene. Apart from that, though... let's just say I'd rather use a Warrior.

Well yah obviously if you're using consumables you won't need Critical Agility. As for enchantment removal that's an issue for anyone running enchantments. I still think in general PvE Critical Agility is a very good IAS.

Quote:

The comparison really isn't as lopsided as you guys suggest. W/D wastes the elite on Warrior's Endurance. A/D loses SY!, and frankly shouldn't be playing scythe to begin with.

Not trying to make it seem lopsided. As for not using scythes...well they shouldn't be using bows either but they do that pretty effectively as well.

Quote:

Critical Agility is a wasted skill slot when playing for serious. Drunken Master gets you both movement and attack speed, and the armor bonus doesn't stack with SY!

I agree Drunkan Master is a great skill but on my sin I'd rather use Critical Agility for the simple reason that my Dwarf rank isn't very high. As for the bonus not stacking with SY who cares... its not really about the armor bonus its about 33% IAS.

Burst Cancel · Jan 20, 2009, 06:06 AM // 06:06

"Pretty effective" isn't relevant. Unless you're just screwing around, "most effective" is the only thing worth caring about, and neither scythes nor bows are "most effective" for an assassin. In reality, the often-used argument against playing dervishes (i.e., "Scythesins do it better") results in an argument for not using scythes at all.

I bring up the armor bonus on CA for two reasons:
1) it's significant, and
2) if I'm going to claim that CA is a wasted slot, I need to show that it basically does nothing, which means I have to address both the IAS and the armor.

Darkside · Jan 20, 2009, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

I bring up the armor bonus on CA for two reasons:
1) it's significant, and
2) if I'm going to claim that CA is a wasted slot, I need to show that it basically does nothing, which means I have to address both the IAS and the armor.

I don't personally find the armor bonus to be that significant it's just that... a bonus. The primary reason to have it on your bar is for the IAS so you can attack faster and kill faster. Drunken Master is great and all but if your allegiance rank is low or you want 33% IAS rather then the 15% of Drunken (excluding using alcohol) then Critical Agility is better.

Maneo Ranae · Jan 20, 2009, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Warr=Great. Can use Scythes almost as well as Dervishes, the only difference being that Dervishes can get runes on top of their Scythe Mastery to get even more damage. Somehow my Scythe Warr just can't compare to 150 damage EVERY SWING from my D/E Conjure Derv.
However, Warrs have more Conditions than Dervishes do, unless you're getting Earth Prayers.
Warriors can do=Bleeding ([Sever Artery]), Deep Wound ([Gash], [Crushing Blow]), Daze ([Skull Crack]), Blind ([Belly Smash]), Cripple ([Crippling slash]) and on top of that they can knockdown foes while weakening them ([Devastating Hammer]).
Dervishes can do=Bleeding, Deep Wound ([Wounding Strike]), Cripple ([Crippling Sweep]), Weakness ([Shield of Force]) and that's about it,... Unless you want to spend your ELITE on Blind ([Ebon Dust Aura]), but then you're losing Wounding Strike... Which isn't good.

Considering PvE only; the best builds for the Warriors would be a Manly Earth Shaker Pwner,... D-Slash SY-spammer and ofcourse the Scythewarr,...
Too bad Scythewarrs depend on [Aura of holy might (Luxon)] for a good part of their damage, since Dervishes can use that one too. On top of that, they can use pwnage avatars like [Avatar of Grenth] and [Avatar of Lyssa], and maintain them indefinitely ([Eternal Aura]).

Overall,... I just wouldn't know, I've got both ^^.

Burst Cancel · Jan 20, 2009, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

I don't personally find the armor bonus to be that significant it's just that... a bonus. The primary reason to have it on your bar is for the IAS so you can attack faster and kill faster. Drunken Master is great and all but if your allegiance rank is low or you want 33% IAS rather then the 15% of Drunken (excluding using alcohol) then Critical Agility is better.

Allegiance rank isn't an issue. If you're using Drunken Master at all you're either using cons or buffing with alcohol, most likely the former. There's no reason to use the skill otherwise, which is why I said it's for playing seriously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maneo Ranae

Warr=Great. Can use Scythes almost as well as Dervishes, the only difference being that Dervishes can get runes on top of their Scythe Mastery to get even more damage.

No, actually. The salient difference is that dervishes have double the energy regen of warriors. Innate armor penetration and Power Attack easily outweigh the damage penalty from runes.

Perfected Shadow · Jan 21, 2009, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Dervishes are too slow for me because of the need to recast enchants. With warrior, you can just go in there and go berserk. Yes dervishes have decent survivability enchants, but those can be stripped, a warrior's inherent huge AL cannot and doesn't take up skill slots.

Lourens · Jan 21, 2009, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Warriors all the way

They can get 116 with sentinels so Avatar of Balthazar sucks

And of of course [Eviscerate]

Darkside · Jan 21, 2009, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Allegiance rank isn't an issue. If you're using Drunken Master at all you're either using cons or buffing with alcohol, most likely the former. There's no reason to use the skill otherwise, which is why I said it's for playing seriously.

Seriously, who the hell buffs with alcohol on a regular basis? Also, why would you be using cons ALL the time?

Maneo Ranae · Jan 21, 2009, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

Dervishes are too slow for me because of the need to recast enchants. With warrior, you can just go in there and go berserk. Yes dervishes have decent survivability enchants, but those can be stripped, a warrior's inherent huge AL cannot and doesn't take up skill slots.

Dervish=70+Windwalker's (Let's say three enchants)=85
Plus Conviction (24)=109
Plus Avatar of Balthazar (40)=149.

Whatever you say, Warrs can't top that so easily, unless you wanna go for Dolyak's or Defy Pain,...

Cebe · Jan 21, 2009, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maneo Ranae

Plus Conviction (24)=109
Plus Avatar of Balthazar (40)=149.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guildwiki

There is a cap of +25 armor from skills. Single skills may exceed this cap.

As far as I can tell, the additional armour from these two skills together will still only be +40, and only because AoB is one of those skills which allows you to exceed the +25AL cap, so as far as I can see your figures are slightly off. Just a technicality.

Necrotic · Jan 21, 2009, 02:17 PM // 14:17

So now it's....Warrior vs. Dervish.....what's next Fatelord, Warrior vs. Elementalist? Ranger?

I know you're just trying to get input so you can build the best warrior in the game...but seriously....just try it yourself and make your own decision....after all you do have 8 slots or so to use right? Plus you can always delete it and start over if you find yourself not liking the choice you made.